Anyone have any experience with ECU tuning?

"YSI-what can brown do for you" (ysi-what-can-brown-do-for-you) 09/08/2013 at 16:49 • Filed to: None

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I want to get a stage 2(basically need exhaust+intake) tune for my car. It will add about 20 more horsepower ontop of what I already have. I have heard it is good for the car(gives it better gas milage, horsepower, and such). SO basically, should I have any problems? Will my engine blow up after 10 miles, or will it last as long as stock?

Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 16:51

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FRS I assume?

Make sure a reputable company does the tune.

Best to take it to a shop and have them spend a day tinkering with it.

Box tunes are alright, but I'm fighting with my tune right now cause everything is all fucked up....

offroadkarter > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 16:51

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What do you have?

you are thinking of taking it to a shop to have it tuned, right?

Also, real car modding isn't related to gran turismo, theirs no real "stage 1, stage 2" crap. You can retune a ECU even if you have a bone stock car, or twin turbos.

Sparf > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 16:52

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Stage 2 is just gibberish nonsense, and the meaning of it varies depending on what tuning shop it is.

20 horsepower and better mileage sounds a bit unrealistic, but then again I'm not terribly experienced with ECU tuning.

Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT > Sparf 09/08/2013 at 16:53

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My tune got my 50+whp and my MPG went up by 3mpg I think.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT 09/08/2013 at 16:53

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I am sure there are shops close enough to me. Both where I live, and where I go to school are located next to big cities, so there has to be someone there. I just don't like taking my car to a shop, I don't know what it is but I can never trust them. I assume they will ask what I want from the car. . .

Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 16:55

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Find a Dynoshop that does tuning on Toyota's

They will follow your instruction, what you want from it, or you can tell them I just want more power, or better gasmileage. You are paying them good money for it, and it's easy work.

Find a shop that people know does good work too.

Not some backalley dude with a laptop.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Sparf 09/08/2013 at 16:55

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Hey don't ask me, that is what people on the forums are saying. I don't know what witch craft they worked on it. I also should specify this is stage 2 of a certain company. I am sure there are shops out there they will get something similar to that.

YSI-what can brown do for you > offroadkarter 09/08/2013 at 16:56

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Well I know there is no stage1 or 2, but I was looking a certain companies tunes (they call them by stages ). Is it better to take it to a shop?

YSI-what can brown do for you > Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT 09/08/2013 at 16:57

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I don't like back alleys, they scare me. I will probably have to do some research on shops then. Hopefully there is good stuff around me.

Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 16:58

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Hope so.

Where about do you live?

YSI-what can brown do for you > Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT 09/08/2013 at 16:59

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I live by Chicago, but I go to school about an hour away from Indy. Chicago is big city there has to be something good somewhere around there.

offroadkarter > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 17:00

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okay I'm guessing you have a toyobaru

A lot of shops will sell mail order tunes, it becomes apparent which are good or not just by what people say on the forums. If you have a forum vendor with a good rep that sells tunes then you shouldn't have any problems.

Would finding a local (or somewhat local) shop with a good rep that can dyno tune YOUR car be better? Absolutely, mail order tunes are more well rounded for any car, a dyno tune is for your car and your car alone. But unless you have a lot of work done, I feel its not worth the money to get an extra 5-10hp out of the tune. I ran a mail order tune on my car for 5 years until I put the supercharger on, thats when I got it dyno tuned

Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 17:01

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Yeah, definitely with the scene out there that HAS to be a number of reputable shops.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 17:04

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I think you'd better pair that Cobb short shifter. I hear it can save your life.

http://jalopnik.com/5786877/how-a-…

GhostZ > offroadkarter 09/08/2013 at 17:13

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A ton of aftermarket parts are marked as "stage 1" and "stage 2" etc. Gran Turismo probably got that from real life.

It's sort of universally accepted that Stage 1 is for mild street use and for people who want cheap, reversible effects, Stage 2 is for street and track, for people with the budget and who don't care about messing with more permanent things. Stage 3 is usually track-only and starts seriously compromising other characteristics (NVH) of the car.

offroadkarter > GhostZ 09/08/2013 at 17:17

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Maybe in the import realm but thats not really common in the domestic world.

I didn't buy a "stage 1" blower, I just bought a blower. I don't have "stage 1" autometer gauges either.

GhostZ > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 17:19

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I agree with a lot of other posts here and want to reiterate: It's not worth it unless A) you've done lots of other mods, in which case the gain could be significant for the cost or B) you can have it professionally dyno-tuned to some standard.

Remember, all an ECU does is manage the engine, so it can change what compromises you have, but it doesn't do much else. On a stock motor, anything you're going to gain is some HP at the expense of fuel economy, reliability, or performance.

I think the #1 reason some tunes produce more power is that they are able to retard/advance the spark and control injector output, letting you run higher octane fuel for a bit more power (like, a 2% gain), or because they have some computer-controlled variable valve timing.

desertdog5051 > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 17:20

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You can do it yourself with something like a Bullydog. There is so much flex built into modern engines that it should not be an issue. Modern, tighter tolerance, engines can take a lot of tuning.

GhostZ > Sparf 09/08/2013 at 17:25

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Tuning gains are almost entirely dependent on how many/what kind of mods are on the car. And by "tune" I mean ECU only. A car with lots of mods, especially a turbo (aka, Nick's in the other comment) is going to see massive gains for the dollar because it brings in a bunch of otherwise non-sychronized parts into harmony.

On newer cars, I believe (don't quote me on this) you can change the firing of the spark plugs and the output of the injectors to gain at most a 5-10% mpg gain (at the risk of running lean) at a 2-3% power increase (at the risk of a 5-10% mpg loss) the stock tune isn't really worse, it's just optimized differently for engine longevity.

Now if you have a turbo, new injectors, different camshaft, and all sorts of other goodies, a tune could be not just good, but absolutely necessary.

YSI-what can brown do for you > offroadkarter 09/08/2013 at 17:25

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Yeah I am basically going to be staying away from forced induction for a while(give it 5 or so years). There are some good vendors on the forums who have come up with good results. I want to go this route, as I don't really trust shops. . . just cause.

YSI-what can brown do for you > desertdog5051 09/08/2013 at 17:26

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This makes me very confident. Doing it myself though, that just scares the crap out of me.

6cyl > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 17:29

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GhostZ > offroadkarter 09/08/2013 at 17:32

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I didn't say all parts. Just many of them. They sell Stage kits for Mustangs, (Roush's entire business model is based on them) there are "stage" camshafts and heads for a variety of V8s. Chevrolet used to do dealer-specified "stage" kits for a lot of dealer-equipped aftermarket parts. A Chevy Cobalt SS could go from Stage 1 to Stage 3, varying its output (as well as the suspension, tires, interior, etc.) from a stock 250HP to over 400HP relatively easily by just bringing it into a dealer, and all with a manufacturer-backed warranty. "Stage" designation is popular and it is common even here in the domestic world.

For example, a "blower" is funny in its own right, since catalogs call them superchargers now to differentiate them from a turbo, the term 'blower' itself becoming outdated.

desertdog5051 > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 17:32

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Those tuners you buy are pretty much like using your computer. I know you can do that. They ask you the questions and you select the answer. Very dummy proof. If in doubt, just go to their website and you can select what you want it to accomplish and it will give you all the information you need. Easy.

offroadkarter > GhostZ 09/08/2013 at 17:37

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Going to a car meet and saying "I have a stage 1 this" and a "stage 2 that" honestly makes you sound like you have no idea what you really have. If I ask someone what they have done to their engine I don't want to hear about how they have a "stage 2 engine".

It slipped my mind but yes your right I know roush and saleen and the like have different levels of cars you can choose from. Its a bit different from having a stage 1 or stage 2 tune though. FFS, a tune is a tune! If a "stage 1" tune is more mild, and a "stage 2" tune is more aggressive, just say that.

offroadkarter > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 17:40

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A lot of vendors ARE shops, we have a vendor on my forum who runs a performance shop out of GA. The old mail order tune I had on my car was developed on the dyno at a shop out of MI.

But like I said, a mail order tune from a reputable vendor that has good credibility, and you will be all set. IMO a mild car doesn't need much more. Dyno tuning is expensive (Average going rate in NJ is 6-800 dollars, I had mine done in DE and it was around 300) and thats a lot to pay to gain 10hp from an exhaust and intake or something like that.

GhostZ > offroadkarter 09/08/2013 at 17:48

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Roush actually did offer stage 1 and stage 2 tunes. It's not just different levels of cars, you could start with a stock mustang, covert it to a Roush stage 1 (which was largely cosmetic) a Roush Stage 2 (added a supercharger), or a Roush Stage 3 (extremely aggressive cam, higher boost, etc.) each one came with an entire ECU remapping along with it.

It's sort of like showing up at a car meet, saying you have a stage 2 ECU tune on a stage 2 turbo wit ha stage 2 cam, someone is going to say "you don't know what your'e doing". The response is "You're right. That's why I paid 10,000$ and here's a dyno slip for 500WHP." They didn't want to do the math and tuning. They wanted cheap, simple power.

Some people don't have the time or the ability to select each individual cam profile or decide which alloy their pistons should be made out of. They just want to look good and stay pretty stock (stage 1) a fast car that is still comfortable (stage 2) or they want a balls-out track car (stage 3). The convention catches on, and don't be surprised (or mock them) if legitimate car enthusiasts use this terminology.

Me? I think it's better to always do research and understand the numbers associated with "more aggressive" and do the calculations on your own, keeping yourself informed about everything from varying types of IRS geometries to undercarriage shapes to create downforce to calculating pulse tuning characteristics of an engine.

Do most people want to do that? Hell no. It takes time that is (arguably) wasted just learning.

offroadkarter > GhostZ 09/08/2013 at 17:53

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I'm pretty sure the stage 2 roush was just handling and some power boltons like an exhaust and intake. At least thats how it was back on the SN95 cars, I don't think the stage 2 cars had a blower.

YSI-what can brown do for you > offroadkarter 09/08/2013 at 17:56

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Well yeah, but I feel like they are more reputable. People have a bad experience and they will speak out against them. For example this guy and a few of his cars just catching fire(he also didn't pay the customer back for damages).

offroadkarter > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 17:59

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I think I heard about that story actually...

Keep in mind, depending on what site it is or how the staff runs it, its not bizarre to hear of forums covering up bad stories of vendors. Vendors pay cash, members more often than not, don't. I used to be on one site where the administrators would delete any thread or post bashing a certain member. This went on for years, until more and more stories kept surfacing. The last straw was when one member had to go take the car back from the shop and found it had an extra 4000 miles on it, a giant dent on the hood, a cracked bumper, missing parts, and a laundry list of other issues.

Bottom line, it pays to do your research!

GhostZ > offroadkarter 09/08/2013 at 18:10

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You're right, I double checked. They did have a tune, exhaust, and intake (260 -> 300HP) and a suspension package.

offroadkarter > GhostZ 09/08/2013 at 18:33

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Can I step in and be the pretentious douchebag who says that buying a pre-built car is what separates the car enthusiasts from the gear heads?

Not that I have anything against the roush or saleen cars.

davedave1111 > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 18:44

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I've always been cynical about ECU 'gains', because there's usually a good reason the well-funded manufacturer didn't do something that a small shop can come up with. Sometimes it's because the manufacturer deliberately restricted peak power slightly to give nice smooth delivery, or some such, so all you lose is a bit of refinement. Other times you lose reliability, or something else potentially costly.

If you've already made mechanical upgrades to the engine, then it's a different story - but you're going to need to get a custom remap done, not an off-the-shelf tune.

As far as I can see, though, the claims of significant horsepower gains from a mail-order chip are purest horseshit.

GhostZ > offroadkarter 09/08/2013 at 18:49

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I'm cool with people who buy a pre-built car, as long as they have the driving skill to back it up. Some people just don't get the technical stuff or don't really know what they want to optimize, but they sure as hell can throw a car into a corner. Some gearheads don't know how to explain it, but they are definitely out there for the speed.

Can't drive and don't know what you want? Stick to posters and pretty cars.

SteyrTMP > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/08/2013 at 20:23

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One word... MegaSquirtIII.

YSI-what can brown do for you > davedave1111 09/08/2013 at 22:44

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Well I am pretty new to this whole car modifying things, so I am not sure what does what. From what I have heard though, some of the tunes actually do give the gains they promise and usually help with gas mileage while keeping the engine intact for many hundreds of thousands of miles. The one for the FR-S don't really use chip but use the car CPU and just change everything about it.

I am not sure though, everyone on the forums has had good experience with it. . . so I feel like they might actually do the trick.

davedave1111 > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/09/2013 at 08:12

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From what I have heard though, some of the tunes actually do give the gains they promise and usually help with gas mileage while keeping the engine intact for many hundreds of thousands of miles.

So what you're saying is that there's a free improvement that the manufacturer could have made to your car with no downsides, but didn't? Does that sound plausible to you?

What is plausible, indeed well-established, is that well-meaning people end up kidding themselves (very effectively) about the 'benefits' they paid for. It's the placebo effect.

everyone on the forums has had good experience with it. . . so I feel like they might actually do the trick.

Even though they don't mean to, they'd say the same even if there was actually a slight loss of performance. People are really good at fooling themselves. It's not just possible, but normal, for people to believe a placebo is doing something - and even more so when they've paid lots of money for it and really want to believe it's working.

The one for the FR-S don't really use chip but use the car CPU and just change everything about it

I think you meant the ECU? And that's what chipping is - replacing or remapping the ECU.

YSI-what can brown do for you > davedave1111 09/09/2013 at 11:37

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Yeah I mean ECU. And to be honest, I wish you were right that way I didn't have to spend the money on this. But, there is enough evidence to suggest that even a mild tune does give extra power . Usually what tuners do is change the air/fuel ratio and when a spark plug fires. Usually OEM manufactures have a threshold of failure. Basically they want to be safe rather than sorry. A mild tune(like mine) requires a few bolt ons but will make power, without ruining the engine. It won't be something amazing, but 15 to 20 hp seems like a good deal for me, especially considering a basic full exhaust(header and all) will give you about 30hp.

Then again this is what I have heard, and I just wanted to hear peoples opinions on Oppo, as I don't want to be screwed over.

davedave1111 > YSI-what can brown do for you 09/09/2013 at 15:46

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Please note, I didn't say chip tuning can't do anything, but that it can't do anything for free . Unless the manufacturer deliberately crippled the engine via the ECU (which is not something they do these days), there's nothing much to be 'unlocked'. You can, of course, trade reliability beyond next week for power.

If anything, two of those graphs rather prove my point. Optimistically, those tunes are giving an extra 5-10BHP at a couple of spikes in the rev range. Even if it was over the whole rev range that's not really a noticeable increase, but considering it's only in a few spikes it's an almost non-existent gain.

The third shows a proper, consistent power gain throughout the range - but I'd be astonished if that's a pure-chip result and not a properly modified engine. If the engine hasn't been modified, it's going to go bang at some point well before it should. Oh, just realised that one's called 'header full cat', so the implication is that there are indeed significant mods.

If, as you say, you're doing mechanical work too, then you'll need a custom remap to make the most of it. Without it, you might as well not bother with the remap. Spend the money on really good tyres instead, because you'll notice that difference a lot more - a general rule of thumb I've heard is that you won't really feel the difference from any power increase less than 25% or so.

YSI-what can brown do for you > davedave1111 09/09/2013 at 17:35

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I completely understand why you are skeptical. That is part of the reason I am asking this question. To answer your question, I am indeed getting a full exhaust system(headers and back, I have a high flow cat plus catback right now), which might need an ECU tune as the stock ECU has been known to sap power from these set ups. Also if you look at the third tune you will notice that it did have a 16ish hp increase, which is really good for a few hundred bucks.

Funny you talk about tires, because that is going to be my next mod(plus I am looking at lighter/wider wheels and better brakes). I also want a to change out the final drives in my car because it not only helps in acceleration but when taking corners your revs are in the perfect place.